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G2 Oaks D'Italia /G2 Premio Carlo Vitt...
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121Sports
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Racing Discussions
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Greyhounds
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Sting punters pocket almost $1m
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Barack Obama  Joined: 9/20/2005 Posts: 16,516  
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Ouch! Doesn't sound like there is anything technically illegal with this practice. Anyone have an ethical problem with these tactics? How can bookies safeguard themselves? It will be interesting to see the outcome... I'll post up more news when it comes.From http://www.couriermail.n...0,5942,17634407,00.html
AN insider from the bookmaking ranks close to the Gold Coast greyhound betting sting believes the mystery punters netted nearly $1 million.
The man, who asked not to be named, said: "They (bookies) were taken for a lot of money. They just don't want to look like dills."
Adelaide bookmaker Curly Seal appeared the hardest hit, admitting that he had taken a loss close to $600,000. "If you said (I lost) $600,000 that wouldn't be far off the mark," Seal said.
"The most I lost was on an Epsom in Sydney one year. But that was a big-betting race and it didn't hurt because I gambled and lost.
"That was legitimate. It wasn't anything like Tuesday. That was a total debacle. I've been stung before but not like that – never on a dog whose price wasn't correct."
Seal said two established clients, one in Adelaide and the other in Sydney, placed the bets. On Tuesday, the pair's syndicate backed odds-on favourite Lucy's Light with at least five bookmaking firms around Australia and agreed to be paid on final Queensland tote odds.
Lucy's Light was showing $1.10 in the field of six when the bets where placed.
The syndicate then bet $15,000 on each of the other five runners 45 seconds before the race was to start.
By the time the phone account operator read back the bets and with a natural 30-second delay for the bets to register, the race had started, showing Lucy's Light at $1.10.
After she won easily, the tote updated and her dividend drifted to $13 (12-1).
Seal has spoken to South Australian racing authorities to find out if he is legally bound to pay out at $13.
The Courier-Mail's source said $57,000 was placed on Lucy's Light with Seal.
At $13, that would be a $741,000 payout.
Shane Adams at UNiTAB confirmed five win bets were placed on Lucy's Light's rivals 30 seconds before the start. One punter made all five bets, Adams said.
The biggest shock was the amount of money Seal stands to lose, with associates describing him as a "much-loved character".
"To think this could happen to Curly, he wouldn't hurt a fly," one source said.
"It's real shame this happened to him of all people."
On Tuesday, Northern Territory bookmaking firms Betezy, Sportingbet and Sportsbet appealed to Northern Territory Racing Commission on whether they had to pay out at $13.
By yesterday, both Sportingbet and Sportsbet decided not to wait for the NTRC decision and paid out.
"They are good clients, they got us and good luck to them. It's a nice Christmas bonus," said manager Matthew Tripp of Sportsbet.
Betezy has offered varying payouts if the NTRC rules against the punters, but has agreed to accept the loss.
The bookmakers won't give the names of the punters though Ryan Kay, of Betezy, admitted a circle of punters did a similar thing with a place pool at the Penrith trots six months ago.
"There was a hot favourite. They backed the rest of the field at the last minute on the NSW tote after backing it with the bookies. It paid about $6 or $7," he said.
"This time our firm won't take the full brunt of the sting as we have a $10,000 maximum payout on greyhound races for each client.
"I will add that a few accounts backed the dog, however."
Tripp remembers the Penrith race and said "the NTRC then advised us to cop it sweet and pay".
Kay has said Betezy will look into offering tote odds about trots and dogs races that have small pools.
"There may be something we have to do about it," he said. "We will see."
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Barack Obama Joined: 9/20/2005 Posts: 16,516
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Some more info from http://www.dailytelegrap...7633400-5001023,00.html
SHATTERED Adelaide bookmaker Curly Seal yesterday revealed he lost a massive $600,000 in the Gold Coast greyhound sting believed to have been masterminded by a big Sydney punter.
As the fallout continued yesterday from Australia's biggest plunge on a greyhound, bookmakers yesterday learned the full extent of the sting - a cool $1million was ripped from off-course bookmakers in a matter of minutes.
But it was Seal - a colourful and well-liked bookie - who took the brunt of the punters' attack.
"If you said (I lost) $600,000 that wouldn't be far off the mark," said Seal.
"The most I lost was on an Epsom in Sydney one year. But that was a big-betting race and it didn't hurt because I gambled and lost.
"That was legitimate. It wasn't anything like Tuesday - that was a total debacle. I've been stung before but not like that, never on a dog whose price wasn't correct."
The big punters sensationally manipulated the Queensland UNiTAB pool by putting $16,000 on each of the five opposing dogs to beat the hot favourite Lucy's Light in race two at the Gold Coast on Tuesday.
Lucy's Light had opened at $1.10 but started at the outrageous odds of $13 - shortly after the punters had got on for $75,000 in collective bets with corporate bookmakers around the country.
When star stayer Lucy's Light greeted the judge, winning by seven lengths, bookies were left red-faced and the big punters were rejoicing.
The punters targeted a race with a small pool and a standout performer, knowing they could alter the win pool without risking too much money.
As the Queensland Greyhound Racing Control Board launched an investigation into the plunge yesterday:
The money trail pointed to a Sydney mastermind because it was from here that the biggest bets were laid.
While the names of the punters remained a highly guarded secret (protocol in the punting business) The Daily Telegraph learned that two of the biggest punters were based in Sydney and Adelaide. Sources said three or four punters were involved.
The NSW TAB called for corporate bookmakers to be banned from using TAB totaliser dividends - fearing similar copycat incidents.
There were reports last night that a similar sting on a smaller scale was carried out on the place pool at Penrith trots several weeks ago.
Bookmakers agreed yesterday they had little option but to pay the punters a Christmas motza.
But Seal was last night seeking advice from the stewards and the South Australian racing authorities over his options. He revealed he had received two bets, one from Sydney and another locally.
Michael Sullivan, of Sportingbet, said he was grateful his agency had only dropped $8800. "We have sophisticated computer systems in place to prevent such a thing happening," Sullivan said.
"If a dog is paying $1.30 in one state, $1.40 in another and then $13, you don't have to be a bookie for too long to work out what's going on.
"But I don't see anything wrong with it. If any punter can get an edge, good luck to them. It's our job to negate that."
Christian Sawyer, of Centreracing, paid out $7200 after "receiving a bet from NSW".
"That's not too bad a result considering we lose a lot more on races around the country each week," Sawyer said.
"It's not good what happened, but it's one of those things that can happen when you're offering tote prices. If the dog had lost, nobody would be complaining."
Sportsbet's Matthew Tripp and Alex Kay, licensee of Beyezy, both paid out $26,000. "My theory is it's fair game and good luck to them, they're going to have a nice Christmas," Tripp said.
"We took a bet of $2000, but it was a bit like a casino and having a card counter - there's not much you can do when things like this happen," Kay said.
NSW TAB chief executive Michael Piggott blamed the corporate bookmakers for the sting, which he labelled a "disgrace" and bad for the integrity of racing.
Piggott wants corporate bookmakers banned from using TAB totalisator dividends, saying they use its markets but contribute little to the industry.
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Brian Lara  Joined: 12/8/2005 Posts: 3,341
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stupid bookmaker deserved what he got. you should never field on an event where you are not in control of framing your own market. typically those pools would have less than $10k wagered on them. just a couple of smart 'investors' there who hedged their downside and got $13 about an $1.30 pop. Knowledge is power, ignorance is death
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Phil Taylor  Joined: 10/31/2005 Posts: 2,573 Location: Asia
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So true Maxi, some bookies are like sheep they just follow the lead. This shows how reliant they are on framing themarket using the tote. I'm suprised this hasn't happened more often. Some people are masters of money, and some its slaves. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiO6cK4XUuI
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Mark Spitz  Joined: 9/26/2005 Posts: 7,489 Location: Australia/Melb
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Made the papers all over it seems. Not illegal or un ethical. Just taking advantage of the system and the way things are done by some. If you have the smarts and the money to have a go at it why not. They will have trouble doing it all again though me thinks  sig by pooc 
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Mal Meninga  Joined: 9/25/2005 Posts: 1,538 Location: Australia
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Is this actually legal? Surely if you had one million dollars it would be enough to make yourself huge amounts of money by doing this trick? Also bookies would all go bankrupt! Didak Attack 
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Brian Lara  Joined: 9/24/2005 Posts: 3,368 Location: Australia
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I read an article 2-3 days ago, and the punters still hadnt been paid - the bookies were holding off as long as they could while they seek legal clarification or something. Any news as to whats going to happen? Ie Are the bookies going to have to payt up?
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Hulk Hogan  Joined: 1/4/2006 Posts: 23 Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Should have never said yes to the return being the tote odds. Silly Silly man. A damn good scheme thought if you got the cash to float it. Its a celebration!!
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Phil Taylor Joined: 10/31/2005 Posts: 2,573 Location: Asia
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As bigmaxi said the problems is a lot of the bookies don't know what they are betting into especially for lesser know greyhound races. They all tend to use the tote as a guide. This could never happen to bigger races only smaller race were there is little interest in the race it self. Must of been a few punters who made some money off the tote in this race. Totally legal though nothing stopping anyone from doing this, also you don't need that much money on these kind of races to influence the tote because the pool is so low. Would need a bit of luck to take advantage of the bookies error if they don't realise what is going on. I wonder if they thought about doing all the different totes in Australia, would have been even harder to detect. Some people are masters of money, and some its slaves. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiO6cK4XUuI
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Dougie Lampkin  Joined: 1/9/2006 Posts: 32 Location: Australia
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they're not using the tote as a 'guide', they are simply using the tote - it's called offering a service! There is no fixed-odds service on greyhounds available off-course, and virtually nothing on-course these days anyway barring major tracks.
In theory, tote prices have a nice margin that will make them a profit without having to do any work. But the pools are so small, that they are open to manipulation. Smaller versions of this have happened many times before, this is the daddy of them all.
Any bookie betting tote odds has to tread very carefully, even more so if they bet 'best tote'.
Safest way to do it would always be send 80% of the bet back into the pool to guarantee a realistic price, but the natural bookmaking instincts would always be to lay a heavy favourite - big reward, little risk... in theory!
The pros bet heavily in the final seconds before the market closes, even monitoring the pools closely isn't enough, as proven here. Merging the pools in NSW & Vic would make this a lot harder to do, and provide genuine dividends for punters who like a bet on the dogs & trots, rather than having to bet with bookies who will usually put any significant bet back into the pools anyway.
Curly Seal is entitled to seek a ruling before paying out, just like a punter can take a decision to the stewards, gaming authority, IBAS etc. The money involved isn't a great deal for the guys involved in this... and there's nothing that will save Curly from having to pay up anyway. It's not as if it was a Fine Cotton affair, just manipulation of pools which is a position which the booke put himself into by offering that service.....
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Phil Taylor Joined: 10/31/2005 Posts: 2,573 Location: Asia
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VinKnight have to say your post was excellent and very informative. I was looking into what you said and I found two corporate bookmakers that offer this service for the greyhounds. They are http://www.sportingbet.com.au/ and http://www.iasbet.com/ both stated they guarantee to give better or even prices than the state based totes. Hence putting they at risk. However on further reading I have no sympathy at all for these bookmakers, they put absoluetly nothing back into racing even though they field on it. Sportingbet claimed last year they turnover $700 million on which it paid Northern Territory government 2million for it's licence. Guess how much they pay the racing industry....zilch....nothing. Sportingbet is on the record as saying that any industry fee must be "revenue neutral" - if it is compelled to pay one cent more than it does now then it will skip town and trade illegally. Surely this is not right. I think it is great to see a corporate bookmaker got beaten by a clever punter. Unfortunetly as you mentioned I think the $600,000 they have to cough up is really small potatoes for them. Some people are masters of money, and some its slaves. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiO6cK4XUuI
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Hicham El Guerrouj  Joined: 1/5/2006 Posts: 2,785 Location: Perth, Western Australia
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I like it 
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Dougie Lampkin Joined: 1/9/2006 Posts: 32 Location: Australia
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barney,
i used to work for one of the bookies you mention - the argument re funding sounds simple but it's not.
Here's the deal:
The TABs were set up by state govts as money spinners, but with takeout levels around the 10% mark. Until then the only place you could bet legally in Aus was at the track.
The govts then handed the TABs a legislated monopoly by allowing them to be the only off-course betting service - no other firms are allowed agencies that give them access to the bloke on the street.
Imagine if those rights were given via a bidding process - like the AFL broadcast deal for example... it would be worth a mint! The racing authorities expect corporate bookies to pay them money without any benefits whatsoever.
All of them are willing to pay a reasonable fee - the amount the ARB and other authorities are calling for is simply ridiculous because there would be nothing conceded in return.
Bookies cannot advertise outside the state they are licensed in. Some states don't bother policing it, but NSW in particular, is ridiculously anal about it. Ever seen any corporate bookie advertising in the Sportsman? Best Bets produce two editions - one for NSW, one for the rest of the country. Nor are bookies allowed to sponsor races in most states. In the UK for example, about 2/3 of races are sponsored by bookmakers.
The TABs complain about bookies offering tote prices... how about the totes offering fixed-odds? It's a double-edged sword, but the govt is in the pocket of one side... without the TABs, no state would have a Dept of Racing & Gaming...
Every industry deserves competition - why is wagering any different? There is plenty of room for bookmakers, totes and betting exchanges to survive - it's about exploiting your niche and not bitching and moaning to get the govt protect you everytime a competitor comes along.
The emergence of Betfair proves that competition will not hurt the TABs - their pools did not drop until the TV war started, and 95% of punters will never bother with an exchange because it's seen as too complicated and they don't bet in cash.
When the TABs began in the 60s, you'd get 20,000 to Flemington on a winter Wednesday. Now they'd be lucky to get that many in attendance more than three times outside of the week in November. Bookies have been screwed over big time, and if you've ever been to a racetrack without bookies (ie NZ), it kills the atmosphere totally when there are none there. (HK is a unique setting which cannot be replicted outside Asia). Trots and dogs meetings might as well be run in cyberspace - nobody ever goes to them. The TABs have taken over the industry, and now it's just 'product', nothing more.
Aus racing deserves to be taken to the world - the muppets in charge of it just keep shooting themselves in the foot....
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Dougie Lampkin Joined: 1/9/2006 Posts: 32 Location: Australia
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and as for Sportingbet and media quotes.... very few of them are ever real...
$5m bets on Lonhro? Yeah right....
Corp bookie revenue goes into the NT tax system, some of which goes to the thriving NT racing industry... lol
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Dougie Lampkin Joined: 1/9/2006 Posts: 32 Location: Australia
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Greyhound sting punter queries delay in $700,000 payout
By John Schell
January 7, 2006
IT'S A BET
SYDNEY punter Eddie Hayson yesterday went on the attack against Adelaide-based bookmaker Curly Seal and the South Australian liquor and gaming office over the non-payment of almost $700,000 in the betting sting Hayson and a colleague pulled off at the Gold Coast greyhounds almost three weeks ago.
Hayson said there seemed to be "a lack of professionalism" by authorities in South Australia and was at a loss to know why it may take another three weeks before Seal pays up.
Hayson skinned Seal with a plan to manipulate the Unitab tote pool on a dog race Seal was betting on. Seal, like corporate bookmakers around the country, pay punters Unitab dividends on selected races.
More than $52,000 was wagered on Lucy's Light with Seal to win the race when it was paying as little as $1.10 on Unitab.
Just before the dogs jumped, Hayson's offsider, Steve Fletcher, placed $16,000 with Unitab on Lucy's Light's five rivals, forcing what should have been a $1.30 payout for Lucy's Light to $13.
Hayson said other corporate bookies who were targeted by the plunge had "the decency to pay us at $13", but Seal had referred the matter to the liquor and gaming office for the commissioner to investigate.
"What could possibly have to be investigated further," Hayson said.
"This should have been fixed up already. You'd think there was monkey business going on with Curly and the liquor and gaming office the way it is dragging on."
Hayson said not only was he out of pocket at the moment but charities were missing out, too.
"We will be giving $5000 to the cause that looks after greyhounds and finds them homes when they have finished their racing careers," he said. "And another $30,000 will be donated to the Cremorne Community Mental Health Centre."
Seal said he had been in constant contact with the liquor and gaming authorities and there had been "progression every day".
"They are getting all my information that is relevant. Phone records, betting sheets, things like that," he said.
"It is in the hands of the commissioner and I am bound by their rules."
Hayson said he had spoken to the liquor and gaming office, "but no one there can tell me where they are at with the investigation."
"They have, in fact, been very elusive and unhelpful. There was no fraud involved, all we did was bet with a bookmaker and also bet into a tote pool. The dog still had to win.
"What about the times that Curly has backed something on Unitab that we were on to bring its price in from $14 to $3? We can't and don't complain then."
A spokesperson for liquor and gaming said: "It is very difficult to put a timeframe on it. It may be another two or three weeks but that is not unusual … ".
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Dougie Lampkin Joined: 1/9/2006 Posts: 32 Location: Australia
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all these articles from www.smh.com.auBOOKIE NOT PAYING: South Australian bookmaker Curly Seal is not endearing himself to his fellow bookmakers with his refusal to pay Sydney punter Eddie Hayson following the Gold Coast greyhound sting pulled off last month. Hayson and colleague Steve Fletcher are owed about $700,000 by Seal after backing the greyhound Lucy's Light to win at the Gold Coast. The dog, which was a raging odds-on favourite, returned $13 on Unitab, the tote on which Seal pays out on greyhound bets, after Hayson and Fletcher manipulated the tote pool to cause the inflated price. "I would presume the inquiry is getting closer every day to a conclusion," Seal told the Herald on Thursday when asked if he was going to pay up like his corporate bookmaking counterparts from the Northern Territory who paid the punters at $13. Seal lodged a complaint to the SA Liquor and Gaming Office after the sting, with the findings of that inquiry to be forwarded to the commissioner for a ruling. Seal said he had been seeking legal advice over comments by Hayson, who is infuriated that the bookie hasn't made good on the bet. "In the long term, bad remarks will hurt any business," Seal said. "So I have sought legal advice over what has been said about me." A leading Sydney bookmaker said if Seal's business was being harmed he had brought it on himself. "The simplest thing for Curly to do is pay the punters," the bookie said. "He took a bet and did his money. By not paying he is giving us all a bad name." ================= There are rumours that Curly would rather declare himself bankrupt than pay these guys but I'd be surprised - he has quite a bit of cash behind him by all reports.
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Gary Kasparov  Joined: 9/20/2005 Posts: 2,214 Location: Chelsea, London SW6
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An amazing thread. The most amazing thing is that Curly didn't have a maximum payout clause in his T's & C's. A serious omission that is going to cost him a real wedge! I bet he has one now....... KTBFFH!
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Gary Kasparov Joined: 9/20/2005 Posts: 2,214 Location: Chelsea, London SW6
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"ChelseaChelsea"An amazing thread. The most amazing thing is that Curly didn't have a maximum payout clause in his T's & C's. A serious omission that is going to cost him a real wedge!
I bet he has one now....... Just checked his website - still no T's and C's! http://www.sealracing.com.au/ KTBFFH!
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Dougie Lampkin Joined: 1/9/2006 Posts: 32 Location: Australia
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in most cases, Aus bookies don't get to set their own T's & C's. it's up to their local licensing authority.
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Phil Taylor Joined: 10/31/2005 Posts: 2,573 Location: Asia
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Surely he should pay up. He is just delaying the process what was done was fair game. Have to say this is all about pride eating Curly, it's not like he can't afford it. Some people are masters of money, and some its slaves. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiO6cK4XUuI
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Barack Obama Joined: 9/20/2005 Posts: 16,516
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I can't see any justifiable reason why Curly should be allowed to squirm his way out of paying up - but he seems to think he has a case. What do you guys think? From Foxsports.com.au: Bookie appeals against ruling
By Dennis Markham
August 05, 2006 ADELAIDE bookmaker Curly Seal is appealing a ruling by the Liquor and Gambling Commission that he must pay his $374,000 losing bet to big Sydney punters Eddie Hayson and Steve Fletcher.
Seal said yesterday that he was acting on legal advice in lodging the appeal, which will be heard by the Independent Gambling Authority of South Australia.
"The IGA has much wider powers than the Commissioner to investigate and inquire into the circumstances surrounding the disputed bets," Seal said.
"Personally, I was stunned by the Commissioner's ruling, not because of the money involved but because the legal advice I had indicated we had a very strong case.
"The IGA can investigate the case a lot deeper because of its much wider powers and that's what we are looking for in appealing."
No date has been set for the appeal hearing.
Seal was the biggest loser of several bookmakers around the country caught in a betting sting when Hayson and Fletcher, backed a long odds-on favorite, Lucy's Light, in a greyhound race at the Gold Coast last December.
The pair agreed to take the UNITAB win dividend and then invested a total of $80,000 on the other five greyhounds in the race, which caused Lucy's Light to blow out from $1.04 to $13 before winning easily.
Seal said he was unfazed by what Hayson, the man still to be paid, or his bookmaking colleagues thought about the long delay in settling the dispute.
"Mr Hayson will be paid if the decision goes against me ... I have always said that," Seal said.
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Viv Richards  Joined: 2/26/2006 Posts: 2,140 Location: Victoria
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If people play the market and get the win then surely they are entitled to the money that is owing to them. Fair enough it appears that they did a bit of fixing so that the odds were in their favour but at the end of the day it was their money that they outlayed and their due to get paid what they won. If people are cunning enough and have enough money to play the books like that and the bookie is happy to take their bets then he has to pay up, end of story so far as I am concerned. That is the way the cookie crumbles I guess  Just wish some of the money were coming this way  If it is to be, it is up to me.
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Lance Armstrong  Joined: 8/13/2006 Posts: 9,628
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Dougie Lampkin Joined: 1/9/2006 Posts: 32 Location: Australia
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rumoured to have settled out of court last week...
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Lance Armstrong Joined: 8/13/2006 Posts: 9,628
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i no what i say and say what i do.
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Sting punters pocket almost $1m
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