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Writing Bots Options
BlackMagic
#1 Posted : Sunday, June 29, 2008 6:51:37 PM
Eric Moussambani



Joined: 6/27/2008
Posts: 6

 
I was wondering how many people here write bots themselves?

I’m a programmer and have written a few myself, I don’t understand how people could buy one out of the box that would work and make money since the liquidity of the markets are so low.

I was thinking about offering something up that would give all the elements of a bot, i.e. market data, order manager, position placement but who’s heart(or brain) is scripted so as anyone could take the base code and write the actually trading strategies in python to actually decide what to do.

I have no idea if anything like this already exists, or if there is any really demand for this since the skill set to use it is relatively niche.

Anyone have any interest or ideas?

The markets can stay irrational for longer that you can stay solvent...
Lay Low21
#2 Posted : Sunday, June 29, 2008 7:36:26 PM
Carl Lewis



Joined: 1/12/2007
Posts: 8,360
Location: isle of man

 
could you write something that could back all horses for a set amount at say 2.62 that actually trade down that far ..
i wouldnt want to back them at a higher price no matter what example {2.62} price i have stated .

concept is same as triggered betting..

example

£2 lay at 3.35 is entered at turn of in=play on all horses..
assuming fav is trading higher.

the lays are the trigger for the software to submit a £200 win bet at 3.05 .. only the horses that trade down to 3.35 will trigger win bets on them at 3.05 capturing any money avaliable upto 3.35 atleast..

is there antway to do it without the lay bet..

or option B.


using the triggered betting method can a script be wrote to lay a £2 offer infront of the largest amount in a set price range say 3.05 to 3.35 20 seconds into a race then as the lay bets are taken a £200 back bet is released at the price directly below the largest amount the lay bet was put in front of in that price range..

and in reality i would actually like the lay bet to be a penny lay offer as it is strictly a trigger for the software..

.



Well behaved women do not make history


.
BlackMagic
#3 Posted : Monday, June 30, 2008 10:13:35 AM
Eric Moussambani



Joined: 6/27/2008
Posts: 6

 
You can do whatever it is that you like.

I have spent probably 1000-2000 hours writing bots of varying levels of complexity. About 99% of that programming time was spend on apis for what I consider plumbing i.e. market connectivity, market parsing, order management. Development of the actually strategy of the bot (Arb, StArb, Momentum, etc. ) Ive found takes no more than a day per bot.

There is a product in the financial markets from a company called aparma that allows you to write simple strategies based on triggers but it does all the boring stuff for you. This has been very successful.

From what I’ve seen there are a lot of people who have ideas for strategies but do not have the means to really properly write/test all the plumbing for a bot. I would like to provide something that makes it much easier for people to write their first bot or for people who cant be bothered to keep testing all the bits of their bot they view as non core.

What I am thinking is a robust generic set of APIs that give you access to multiple betting markets and allows you to register for price updates, order updates and to submit orders. I was also looking at creating a decent persistence and back testing suite so as you can test any new ideas that you have.

I just at this point want to gauge if there is any demand for this sort of thing.

Thoughts?

The markets can stay irrational for longer that you can stay solvent...
Lay Low21
#4 Posted : Monday, June 30, 2008 2:25:17 PM
Carl Lewis



Joined: 1/12/2007
Posts: 8,360
Location: isle of man

 
"BlackMagic"
You can do whatever it is that you like.

I have spent probably 1000-2000 hours writing bots of varying levels of complexity. About 99% of that programming time was spend on apis for what I consider plumbing i.e. market connectivity, market parsing, order management. Development of the actually strategy of the bot (Arb, StArb, Momentum, etc. ) Ive found takes no more than a day per bot.

There is a product in the financial markets from a company called aparma that allows you to write simple strategies based on triggers but it does all the boring stuff for you. This has been very successful.

From what I’ve seen there are a lot of people who have ideas for strategies but do not have the means to really properly write/test all the plumbing for a bot. I would like to provide something that makes it much easier for people to write their first bot or for people who cant be bothered to keep testing all the bits of their bot they view as non core.

What I am thinking is a robust generic set of APIs that give you access to multiple betting markets and allows you to register for price updates, order updates and to submit orders. I was also looking at creating a decent persistence and back testing suite so as you can test any new ideas that you have.
I just at this point want to gauge if there is any demand for this sort of thing.

Thoughts?


the bit in bold i understood and was hopeful.

in red i was with you on most points ..

in green sounds interesting but how could you do it in real time i.e. re-run the races..

and im not clear on the mechanics of the api at all..

i have just used software that connected thru the api..

also lost me on a couple of other things ..

im not experienced in anyway with programming ..

i did however look into triggered betting of an excel spreedsheet
quite closely but it was ages ago.. .. as i had what i thought then were successful strategies going by the data i downloaded and firstly edited all the misleading numbers out off .. example

editing out all matched totals that were under £20 then done again the same with all £50 and matched volumes at a price per runner etc..

just my way of looking for strategies that would always show a worst case scenario .. as any part matches are eliminated ..

.



Well behaved women do not make history


.
BlackMagic
#5 Posted : Tuesday, July 01, 2008 12:07:19 PM
Eric Moussambani



Joined: 6/27/2008
Posts: 6

 
Lay Low do you place all your bets by hand?

I don’t think many people who bet regularly have programming experience that’s why I think this is a good idea. What I’d like to do is provide something so as you don’t really need programming experience to use it.

i.e.
To write a strategy to back a horse when it hits a price of 2.05 you would only write this.

[code:1:f1342117ff]

Class BackerBot extends Strategy{
int betSize = 2;
int triggerPrice 2.05;

priceEngine.RegierterListener(PriceListener(){
onPriceUpdate(Price p){
if(p.getBestBack() == triggerPrice)
orderManager.placeBet(p.getHorse(), triggerPrice, betSize, "Back");
});
}

[/code:1:f1342117ff]

A bot that will back when the price above two standard deviations of the three minute moving average you would write

[code:1:f1342117ff]
Class MomentumBot extends Strategy{
int betSize = 2;
MovingAverage mv = new MovingAverage(ThreeMinutes);

priceEngine.RegierterListener(PriceListener(){
onPriceUpdate(Price p){
mv.addPrice(p);
if(p.getBestBack() > mv.getBackMovingAverage() + (2.0 * mv.getBackStandardDeviation()))
orderManager.placeBet(p.getHorse(), p.getBestBack(), betSize, "Back");
});
}

[/code:1:f1342117ff]

You would not need to write any of the stuff to connect, look after orders, look after throttles and all the incredible amounts of shit that goes hand in hand with writing a proper bot. Believe me writing all that stuff is no fun at all.

From my experience there's a massive barrier to writing your first bot as it takes specific skills and a lot of time to put the infrastructure in place. Id like to make it much easier for people to be able to compete with their bots as the more people in the market the better the liquidity which ultimately helps everyone.

Do you think this would be useable by most people? Or do you think its still too complicated?

The markets can stay irrational for longer that you can stay solvent...
BlackMagic
#6 Posted : Thursday, July 03, 2008 12:24:30 PM
Eric Moussambani



Joined: 6/27/2008
Posts: 6

 
I think given the stunning amount of interest I think my inital question has been anwsered.

The markets can stay irrational for longer that you can stay solvent...
Cold Dog
#7 Posted : Thursday, July 03, 2008 3:59:07 PM
Barack Obama


Joined: 9/20/2005
Posts: 16,519

 
"BlackMagic"
I think given the stunning amount of interest I think my inital question has been answered.


Actually I don't agree. This thread has nearly 200 views, and unless Laylow has been clicking refresh like a mad-man, it's fair to say there's some genuine interest in this topic. On the other hand, I think most members would find contributing to this thread a bit daunting.

Do you have a web-site or any more info about your business idea that we could see?
Lay Low21
#8 Posted : Thursday, July 03, 2008 4:32:51 PM
Carl Lewis



Joined: 1/12/2007
Posts: 8,360
Location: isle of man

 
yep dont dissapear blacky..

interesting stuff this and educating is what we need .. if you are of a mind to do so..

.



Well behaved women do not make history


.
BlackMagic
#9 Posted : Friday, July 04, 2008 3:03:41 PM
Eric Moussambani



Joined: 6/27/2008
Posts: 6

 
At the moment it is only an idea in my head.
It would be a reasonable amount of work to get it to a marketable idea so was wondering if it was worth the effort. Something like this will definately pop up at some point Im just not sure that exchange betting markets are ready for it yet.

The markets can stay irrational for longer that you can stay solvent...
Terry
#10 Posted : Wednesday, August 06, 2008 5:28:22 PM
Serge Blanco



Joined: 1/20/2007
Posts: 196
Location: London

 
"BlackMagic"
I was wondering how many people here write bots themselves?

I’m a programmer and have written a few myself, I don’t understand how people could buy one out of the box that would work and make money since the liquidity of the markets are so low.

I was thinking about offering something up that would give all the elements of a bot, i.e. market data, order manager, position placement but who’s heart(or brain) is scripted so as anyone could take the base code and write the actually trading strategies in python to actually decide what to do.

I have no idea if anything like this already exists, or if there is any really demand for this since the skill set to use it is relatively niche.

Anyone have any interest or ideas?


Wouldn't it make more sense for you to create your own bot and trading strategies (or go into partnership with someone) instead of trying to sell the base code?

NFL Season 8-16: -9 Units
NCAA Season 5-6-1: -0.81 Units

Each unit represents $100
Box1Racing
#11 Posted : Saturday, August 09, 2008 1:05:52 AM
Serge Blanco



Joined: 8/8/2008
Posts: 162
Location: FINAL STAND

 
to me it does Very Happy

"It's not how you play the game it's how you cope with losing"

Shamos dear shamos........
korkenzieher
#12 Posted : Friday, November 21, 2008 10:42:10 AM
Newbie

Joined: 11/21/2008
Posts: 1

 
Black Magic - Why not write a book, or a course instead. I got hold of an ebook by a chap called Mark Wildman, and it is really quite poor. I suspect you might have a lot of takers for people who would like to know, from the nuts and bolts levels just how it is done. I'm trying to get my head around the topic, using c# in VisualStudio2008, and can completely understand why 1) people might not want to hand over their system and 2) how much the idea of writing code fragments like those you list, just to configure the thing might well scare people away

KZ
Lay Low21
#13 Posted : Friday, November 21, 2008 11:34:12 AM
Carl Lewis



Joined: 1/12/2007
Posts: 8,360
Location: isle of man

 
the man is on the money very first post..

learning to write code would be very interesting .. but no way i would tackle it on my own ..

.



Well behaved women do not make history


.
mrcowsy
#14 Posted : Wednesday, March 25, 2009 9:09:50 PM
Eddie "The Eagle" Edwards

Joined: 3/25/2009
Posts: 2

 
@BlackMagic

Did you get any further with this idea?
I am putting something together based on the
Composite Application Block/Workflow Foundation and NUnit.



@ korkenzieher

I also think you are right.
I am currently giving development lessons to a trader just so he can understand what is going on.
(at the moment I am trying to ween him of excel sheet macros!!)

They are different requirements though.





[/url]
Joonzs
#15 Posted : Saturday, October 24, 2009 3:02:49 PM
Hulk Hogan



Joined: 10/24/2009
Posts: 21
Location: UK

 
Your idea is very interesting.. I've had some experience in programming myself in C++, VisualBasic, Java, etc. Recently, I've also wrote some bots & sophisticated macros for my work and they did a good justice.

Anyways, goodluck with your concept and I will be back to see how it goes ; )
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